MICHAELParticipant@oneshowguyMay 15, 2020 at 12:04 pmPost count: 12
We own a mini bakery in Nigeria where we produce mainly sweet white pan loaf and slice breads( sugar 11%)
We use straight(no time) dough method for our production , in summary this is our process( mixing – scaling – panning – proofing (2hrs) – baking in oven ).
I have noticed our bread comes out with a plain taste.
we like to enhance our taste ,please what can we do to achieve this ?
Which flavors(nuts , spices) can we add to also achieve this , thanks.
Mark FloerkeKeymaster@independant-consultantMay 22, 2020 at 5:22 pmPost count: 223
Thank you for posting your question. In your situation the easiest first thing I would suggest to try is to add a preferment that in culinary terms and in France is called Pate Fermente. This is in essence left over dough from the previous production day that is retarded. You will start by initially producing excess dough that you do not bake, and retard in the cooler for production the next day. This will help provide you with fermented notes, as well as you may notice that the dough might process a little better. The preferment of this type is typically 10% of the dough batch to be mixed, and can very by bakery up or down.
As far as adding other flavours, grains, seeds, nuts, fruits, etc., the sky’s the limit. What would your market area have interest in? What do you have available to you in your region that is abundant, and or traditional? Tell us more about what your interest is to be able to help you with more ideas.
ZziwaParticipant@kamos-bakehouse-ltdMay 26, 2020 at 4:56 pmPost count: 49
The biggest population of bakeries in Africa ae adapted to the chorelywood technique where dough is subjected to high speeds to develop gluten structure so there is no fermentation done and all yeast does is to prove the bread before baking it
And for a fact there is no fermentation the bread is always very white instead of the creamy colour and flavourless so there is concrete dependency on synthetic flavours to enhance flavour
But i would recommend you to watch Dr lin previous episode 9 on youtube to get the basics and how to go about the bread flavour and fermentation. And why sponge and dough system is your best friend
MICHAELParticipant@oneshowguyMay 30, 2020 at 10:30 pmPost count: 12
Thanks Dr Lin and Mark for making out time to discuss about my question. I will try using 5 to 10% of preferment in our production .
While watching the video , you said something about not using fans in the cooling area, am a culprit to this .Are AC better off to fans during the bread cooling , for a small bakery what’s the best option for cooling.
ZziwaParticipant@kamos-bakehouse-ltdJune 3, 2020 at 2:53 pmPost count: 49
fermentation is done before make up and panning . this is because the dough is left to rise and folded several times before its scaled for final make up the 1 to 3 hours i think its proofing (Actually what we are talking about is called bulk fermentation )though during proofing fermentation still continues to occur.the biggest challenge with the type of straight dough of high speed to develop gluten is oxidation during mixing . it leaves bread flavorless i think the time you have speculated here is for the whole process including baking.
MICHAELParticipant@oneshowguyJune 3, 2020 at 11:13 pmPost count: 12
<li style=”text-align: center;”><span class=”atwho-inserted” contenteditable=”false” data-atwho-at-query=”@kamo”>@kamos-bakehouse-ltd</span>, the 2 to 3 hours is the duration for proofing,not the whole process . Is 3 hours not long enough for fermentation during the proofing stage .
ZziwaParticipant@kamos-bakehouse-ltdJune 7, 2020 at 3:33 pmPost count: 49
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Its true according to the amount of yeast it can proof for those longer hours because the yeast is relatively little(7g per kg of wheat) .Then after mildly proofing the carbon dioxide produced will also limit yeast action so proofing speeds will decrease,there is relatively little budding of yeast,the pH of the dough could also limit the yeast activity (if its relatively high).And so others depending on the ingredients your using could contribute to those long hours of proofing</p>
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Though fermentation is there but its mild to affect the flavor profile of bread.From your explanation gluten development for dough maturity is achieved from the mixer that means oxidation is also too much this also greatly affects your flavor profile and you will end up with a whiter crumb</p>
For bulk fermentation ,the dough leaves the mixer when its not mature then its left to ferment until maturity (a dough ready for scaling) or a sponge comprising of (water, part flour and yeast) fermented and after the long hours of fermentation,its run in the mixer with the rest of the flour to make a dough. according to the yeast your using it will require you to ferment your dough to up to (6-7)hours for dough maturity at room temperature .
I would recommend you to watch the ask Dr Lin episode 9 the whole process was explained very well , it will give you an overview of bulk fermentation . If possible someone from the forum can get us a link here because i personally have tried but failed to “episode 9″.
<p style=”text-align: left;”></p>
MICHAELParticipant@oneshowguyJune 8, 2020 at 12:17 amPost count: 12
<p style=”text-align: center;”>Thanks for taking out time to explain <span class=”atwho-inserted” contenteditable=”false” data-atwho-at-query=”@kamos”>@kamos-bakehouse-ltd</span>.</p>
It will be much better If I can get the direct link to the video ,
Thank you .
GodwinParticipant@daliciousbreadJanuary 14, 2021 at 12:20 pmPost count: 6
Hello Mark @independant-consultant and Dr Lin @lin-carson
Firstly, I must confess that it’s a pleasure and gladness to have discovered this website.
I am a newbie in the baking industry. Still a fresher who is on commercial bread baking online course a.d preparing to start my mini bread baking business.
I am searching for alternative, ways to produce organic industrial flavours for my bread baking instead of depending on industrial flavour from other source.
I am in a French country (Mali) and the type of bread I wish to produce is mainly for the English people. Since such bread isn’t popular here, the flavour is not in the market, thus I had to depend on supplies from other countries within the region. There’s a very huge obstacle in getting the flavours which is not good for the business on a long-term.
Due to the coronavirus pandemic,
1. such ingredients are extremely costly
2. Transportation is very costly and slow
Goods damage so oftenly on the way.
With this challenges, it not easy for me. This is why am searching for alternative ways to create my own flavour. I will appreciate your kind help, support, assistance, advice in achieving this.
My other question is about the preferment dough discussed on another thread. Please can you guide me towards the right direction on this?
1. Do I mix the dough with the same ingredients that will be used for the entire quantity ?
2. During preferment, where do I store dough in order to preferment and for how many hours before the actual dough is prepared for baking.
Mark FloerkeKeymaster@independant-consultantJanuary 29, 2021 at 7:55 amPost count: 223
Thank you for reviving this thread with your questions, quite appropriate at this time.
Most preferments are made only with flour water and yeast. Adding Flavours at this stage is not generally beneficial, as they are often Los to the fermentation, but there are sometimes special or unique exceptions.
Preferments can be a a very difference range of processes, depending on flavour and usage outcomes. Most sliced white pan breads are made with a 4 hour sponge. This is usually fermented between 72-80°F. It is typically 50-60% water ratio to flour. This provides a fermented yeasty flavor and improves crumb softness and shelf life.
A poolish has more water added and can be as much as 1:1 four and water. A poolish is generally fermented somewhere between 12 to 18 hours, depending on desired results. Longer produces more lactic acid sour notes that are more toward vinegar flavor.
A Biga is a stiff preferment that is 50% water or less and in general 8-12 hours fermentation. This produces milder lactic acid notes that are referred to as more of a fermented flavor. Often used for sweeter products like Pannetone fruit breads, or even sweet white breads and buns.
Some fruits and vegetable provide unique enzyme activity to enhance or change flavor profiles. You might want to investigate utilizing local produce to create something special.
GodwinParticipant@daliciousbreadJanuary 30, 2021 at 3:08 pmPost count: 6
Thank you for the explanation. I’ll try soong method and see how it goes.
1. Please, assuming my flour is 50kgs, what percentage of it do I use for the sponge.
2. Regarding flavours, we have, Nutmeg which is widely used by all bakeries already, we have thyme, gimger, fennel, coconut. Please could these be combined at what percentage?
3. Moreso, I wish to adopt organic method in my commercial bread baking. Is ascobic acid or vitamin c tablets a good option for dough conditioning, and preservative when combined with ginger water extract and venigar?
4. If this is possible, what is the bakers percentage for ascorbic acid/vitamin c tablets, ginger wate and venigar.
Thank you in advance,
Looking forward to reading from you.
Mark FloerkeKeymaster@independant-consultantFebruary 1, 2021 at 11:01 amPost count: 223
the amount of flour you use for a sponge is up to you and the flavor profile you are after. Typically 60%-90%, and I have seen as little as 25% of the total flour. You might want to test some small batches first to compare. Here is some related information: https://bakerpedia.com/processes/sponge-and-dough/
Ascorbic acid can be used as a dough oxidizing agent. It does not matter if organic or not. Obtaining organic wheat flour might represent more of a challenge in your region. Ascorbic can vary fro 30 to 60 ppm, and typical GMO is 90 ppm. More is not better. It is not harmful, and over oxidizing the dough will produce poor results. https://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/ascorbic-acid/
Vinegar is sometimes added to lower the dough pH and act as a preservative of sorts to slow mold growth. This will depend on the type and concentration you use, and the desired dough pH you want to try to achieve.
Ginger and thyme are strong flavour spices, and I would start at 0.1% and work your way up to a desired flavor profile. It should net be dominant in my mind, and more of a hint, like a fragrance. Fennel and coconut milk are not as strong, and you could start at 1%. Of course you will also have to adjust for moisture.
I hope this gives you some information to work with.
GodwinParticipant@daliciousbreadMarch 4, 2021 at 1:51 pmPost count: 6
Hope you’re doing great.
Once again, thank you so much for the explanation you’ve already given. They’re really helpful.
Am sorry that my response came very late.
I still have some more concerns and do solicited your kind help.
1. Most bakeries in the Western Africa use between 50% – 60% water in mixing commercial bread doughs.
My question is this: if I should use 50% or 60% of water for the the sponge, what percentage of water do I then use for the other part of the flour.
2. Generally, the most widely used yeast is instant dry yeast. Is this ok and do I use the entire percentage in the sponge or reserve some for the other part of flour?
3. Since l’ll be using ascorbic acid, do I add the entire percentage to the sponge.
4. Can I use all the following combinations in my commecial bread production?
*Ascorbic acid (at whatpercentage)
*Citric acid (at what percentage)
*Vinegar (apple cider at what percentage)
*Garlic powder (at what percentage)
*Honey (at what percentage)
Here in Mali, we don’t have ascorbic acid in powdered form, only the tablet is available. I will have to order from Nigeria if the tablet here is not effective. More so, Please, I didn’t understand the ascorbic acid measurement using the ppm formula. But after making lots of research, I found several AA dosage for breadbaking: Some said the baker’s percentage for AA is 0.03%, some say it’s 1 gram per kilo. A chef am following suggested 1tsp for every 1kg flour or 1/2 tsp for every 4kgs with the combination of 1tbsp of ginger powder.
Once again, thank you so much for your help.
Mark FloerkeKeymaster@independant-consultantMarch 18, 2021 at 11:35 amPost count: 223
- The amount of water absorption – 50-60% – is the total amount of water for the total amount of flour, including the sponge.
Flour 10 kg 100% BP 20% Total BP
Water 5.5 kg 55% BP 11% Total BP
Yeast 2 kg 20% BP 4% Total BP
Flour 40 kg 100% BP 80% Total BP
Water 22 kg 55% BP 44% Total BP
- Instant yeast is fine, and generally speak you use 1/3 the amount compared to fresh yeast. If you get really detailed in lab experiments, then you also need to replace the water amount of the fresh yeast when using instant. If the formula calls for 30g fresh yeast, use 10g instant yeast plus additional 20g water. Most bakers put all of the yeast in the sponge, for sponge and dough process, some bakers split it in whatever ratio they like to use.
- Ascorbic acid is best added when mixing the final dough. Most countries limit ascorbic only by GMP – Good Manufacturing Practices. Too much has no benefit and only will serve to over oxidize the dough. Ascorbic is measured in parts per million, of pure ascorbic. Tablets and other formats are sold in diluted format to make measuring for the baker easier. Follow instructions or recommendations of the product you are purchasing in this case. Typical is n the range from 30-90 ppm. You have to try and see what works best for your flour and your product. There is no singular answer one size fits all.
- As for the other ingredients; again it depends on the format and what you want to accomplish. Start small to test and adjust from there. Start at 0.1% of the formula for concentrated items, or 1% of the formula for many spices and herbs.
With vinegar usually the objective is to lower the pH and help provide a slight increase in shelf life to prevent molding. Too much vinegar will affect the yeast, the gluten and of course the flavor. Standard liquid vinegar start at 1%, and of course adjust water accordingly as well.
- The amount of water absorption – 50-60% – is the total amount of water for the total amount of flour, including the sponge.
GodwinParticipant@daliciousbreadApril 13, 2021 at 1:44 amPost count: 6
Hello Mark @independant-consultant
Thank you so much for your wonderful support. Your advice have been very helpful to me. must confess that you’re a genius. I appreciate you.
Please can I use ascorbic acid as an improver and citric acid as a preservative together in a commercial white pan bread recipe. If this is possible, what percentage of both do you suggest.
I am using ascorbic acid already as improver and preservative, but this make the bread only last for 4 or 5 days only. My clients want me to increase the shelflife to at least ten days minimum. Please Advice. Once again, thank you so much.
Looking forward to reading from you soon 😀
Mark FloerkeKeymaster@independant-consultantApril 16, 2021 at 8:18 amPost count: 223
We are very glad to hear the information is helpful to you!!
you can read some more details on citric acid here: https://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/citric-acid/. This would add a sour taste to your bread, and provide some additional oxidation. For bread this is not an effective preservative, as the citric decomposes at higher temperatures that happen during baking. If mold is your main problem, then first look at process to ensure you are doing everything consistently there, and have not contamination contact areas. The most common preservative used in bread baking for mold control is calcium propionate.
https://bakerpedia.com/sofresh/ SoFresh bags may not yet be readily available in your area, but I suggest you contact them directly to investigate samples and possibilities. I made a short video using bread made without preservatives, only adding fried onions from Top Taste. https://bakerpedia.com/top-taste-b-v/. You can see after 1 month the control is very moldy, and the loaf in the SoFresh bag has no mold. https://youtu.be/J5I4cYB9AN8
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.